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Choosing French Submarine over German? Rational decision or risking Pakistani defence ?

August 4, 2009

by Farzana Shah

A German team is due in few days probably on August 5th according to sources to look into possibility of signing the accord for provision of U-214 submarines to Pakistan Navy.

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U – 214 multi target capability

However reports appearing in the media suggest that the deal may hit snags due to change of mind in the current Pakistani government over purchase of German submarines.

In 2008 Pakistan Navy under chief of naval staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir made efforts for including German 214 Class submarines in its fleet and owing to Navy’s persistent efforts, the government had approved plans for acquisition of these submarines to be built at Karachi Shipyard under transfer of technology programme.

The details were later worked out between the two countries when a Pakistan Navy delegation visited Germany in April.

However recently quoting Pakistani government sources, the Financial Times Deutschland says President Asif Zardari may overrule his military’s preference for the German subs to take up a “better offer” from France.

But what better submarines France can offer to Pakistan? That is a question to ponder because France has no better submarines to offer Pakistan at the moment,  whereas French are indeed not ready to offer us nuclear submarine.

What France has in store?

There are three options 1. Scorpion,  2. Marlin  and  3. Barracuda submarines. But again the scorpions are not superior to U 214, neither these will be having any benefit for Pakistan because French company DCN is already going to provide Scorpion to Indian Navy ahead of Pakistan.

U-214 is way better than French design given to India. Marlin is just on drawing board and will take forever to go to prototype stage and then test and evaluation and finally induction into Pakistan Navy meanwhile India will have all its Scorpion in sea. DCN (Direction des Constructions Navales),  France will not be able to fulfill Pakistani order ahead of Indians.

Now the only option for Pakistan will be to ask for Barracuda submarine,  but it is unlikely that France will sell us nuclear submarine. Barracuda is a nuclear powered submarine and France does not currently allow the sale of nuclear-propelled submarines.

Despite having French Agosta B submarines, the Pakistani Navy opted for purchasing German Torpedoes for fitting to Agosta B due to the superior German technology.

Pakistan Navy needs German submarines because the German U-214 subs are far better than the French Scorpion.

Following is the comparison between French subs and German U 214.

papanikolistrials24ty

Specifications of U-214

Crew

27 (including five officers)

Weapon Systems:

Torpedoes

Six 533mm tubes, 24 STN Atlas Elektronik DM2A4 torpedoes

Combat Data Syetem

Basic Command and Weapons Control System (BCWCS)

Countermeasures:

ESM

EADS

FL1800U

Decoys

TAU 2000 torpedo countermeasures system

Radar

Kelvin hughes type 1007 I-band navigation radar

Sonar

STN Atlas Elektronik DBQS-40 sonar suite and STN Atlas Elektronik MOA 3070 mine detection sonar

Periscopes

Zeiss Optronic SERO 14 search and SERO 15 attack

Propulsion

Diesel-electric, MTU 16V-396 diesel engine, 3.12MW, HDW / Siemens AIP (Air-Independent Propulsion) system, 300kW

U214 Dimensions:

Length

64m

Height

13m

Surface Displacement

1,700m³

Presure Hull Diameter

6.3m

Buoyancy Reserve 10%

U214 Performance:

Submerged Patrol Speed of Advance

6kt

Range

12,000nm

Mission Endurance

12 weeks

Constantly Submerged

Three weeks without snorkelling

Mission Sprint Speed

15kt to 20kt

Maximum Dive Depth

400m+

Scorpion (Scorpène) Subs (French One) Specifications

Key Data:

Crew

32

Dimensions:

Overall Length

63.5m

Draught

5.4m

Submerged Displacement

1,590t

Surface Displacement

1,450t

Pressure Hull Weldable and High-Tensile Steel

80HLES, more than 700Mpa

Performance:

Maximum Operating Depth

350m

Submerged Speed

Over 20 kt

Range (at 8kt)

6,400nm

Endurance

50 days

Weapon Systems:

Torpedoes / Missiles

Six 21in torpedo tubes for 18 torpedoes / missiles

Comparison

Specs Scorpion U-214 Marlin
Crew 32 27
Maximum Operating Depth 350 meters More than 400 meters
Range 6400 nm 12000 nm
Endurance 50 Days 84 Days

The comparison clearly indicates the superiority of German U-214 submarine.

If the current government goes for inferior quality French submarines then it will indeed give weight to suspicion of many Pakistanis who see bribes as main factor behind any irrational decisions viz viz defence deals.

Already the Pakistani senators have demanded in an incamera briefing from Pakistani Naval chief in the Senate.

Whereas some eyebrows have also been raised over the fact that foreign secretary Salman Bashir in the current government of Zardari is the brother of Naval Chief, Noman Bashir and there are also some reports that PIA chairman is going to be named Pakistani envoy to France. Some political pundits see such an appointment an attempt to muster a deal for French submarines.

On the other hand submarine acquisition project (SMAP) a group composed of Naval officers who have recommended U-214 submarines over other options after extensive study has been disbanded and the officers have been posted out at different stations.

Though earlier the Germans have delayed the deal due to political situation of Pakistan but can kickoff cutting of hull for first submarine immediately after signing the deal.

In such a situation going for something which does not fulfill the requirement of Pakistan Navy would be tantamount to putting the national defence at risk.

There is no reason not to go for German submarines specially when Berlin even granted federal export credit guarantees worth nearly $1.4 billion for the purchase of the same.

–    Asian Tribune –

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28 comments

  1. YAAR PHIR YEH GENERAL KIYANI KIA KARAHA HA EK STATEMENT DE DEY JAISEY PEHLEY BHI DI THI K PAK AIR FORCE DRONES ATTACKS KO NISHANA BANA SAKHTI HA BE-IZAATI HOJAYI GI ZARDARI KIA MOU PEY KOI STATEMENT DEY DE
    ARHEY BHAI KIA GHANDAGI MACHAYI WHI HA AMERICAN EMBASSY NE INKA KAAM BC VISA LAGHANE KA HA WOH TOU DETEY NAHI AUR ITNA STAFF KIA KARAHA HA IN KA SIND MEIN BALOCH SAHRAAD MEIN PUNJAB MEIN MADERCHOOD ZABANEY SIKH RAHEY SINDHI PUNJABI PASHTOO BALOCH KIA KAAM HA INKA GOJRA MEIN FASAADAAD INHI LOGONE KARAYE HA KHABHI AJJ TAK NAHI SUNA K MUSLIM CHRISTIAN K PHADEY YEH AJJ KAISE HOGAYA KAL KO HINDO MINORITITES K SAATH BHI PHADA HOOJAYEGA YAHI ZIMEDAAR LOG HA AMERICAN CONSULATES NUKES PE NAZAR HA INKI
    GENREAL KIYANI KIA KARAHAA HA ZARDARI KO TOU RISHWAAT MIL RAHI U.S.A SE ZARDARI REHMAN MALIK BENAZIR NE TOU PEHLEY BHI SIGN KI HA ISREAL AUR INDIA SE PAK K NUKES PER


  2. What is army chief is doing, why cant he come ahead and help out the situation, some body needs to force zardari to hold his horses.
    What about Nawaz sherief and shebaz sharif how long they will stay quite pursuing their own intrests, all the ploiyical party leaders are hipocrates they dont rais the real issues…I have to say this Democracy sucks..


  3. I agree with earlier two comments that Pakistan commander in chief must decide and solve this deli ma
    that we need German Sub. I hope he will do soon because our current political leaders are be-emaan, be-dirkaar, wada khilaaf, lalchi, nikemmey, kursi ki hewes rekhne wale, na ehel, corrupt and many more like this.
    May Allah protect Pakistan Amin sumAmin


  4. now these days in our media the hottest topic is “supreme court’s decision” bullshit…
    all these politician,media persons,lawyers,civil societies and CJ go to hell… in ko to kutta bhi nahi kah saktay …bura maan jaiga …woh bhi wafadar hota hai …
    in sub kay hath paon toor kar daldo …tarpa tarpa kar maroo in sub ko…responsible and sensible people of PAKISTAN have to put pressure on government…
    please spread this message around and pray also by heart… ALLAH PAKISTAN KA HAFIZ.


  5. […] . Pakistan Navy needs German submarines because the German U-214 subs are … Original post: Choosing French Submarine over German? Rational decision or … Share and […]


  6. We need that German Sub….at the moment India spends a lot more money on defence than Pakistan…thing is we cant allow India to gain a stronger military position against Pakistan as that can be very problematic


  7. i agree kayani should come out in open and kick sharifs and bhuttos in the butt of frnch submarines…hey kayani what are u waiting for…we know this goverment is not foing to last for 5 years…sooner is better than later…:)


  8. I don’t know why our media is not doing something to stop this non-sense.
    Moreover, where is Gen. Kiyani?
    Why the hell he is not taking serious action towards.
    Is there no patriotic left to Pak Sarzameen?
    They don’t care about what we are going to loose?

    This government is totally corrupt.


  9. Gud job. Basically these details of quality and standard doesnt come out in front of common people.
    Keep exposing this scams….so that each n every details comes out in the public.


  10. Yes — Why General Kyani or Naval Chief are not coming Forward and defend such controversies — If German Sub is better or Superior than Agosta … Army Chief had to take stand in this issue.


  11. 1.we have eleted this govt. we are ourself a part of this.. all those asking for Gen Kiyani why do you suppot democracy. its our nature once democracy comes we look towards “khakis(army)” and when army comes we look for bhuttos,sharifs,zardaris, mazaris ….


  12. 1. we have eleted this govt. we are ourself a part of this.. all those asking for Gen Kiyani why do you suppot democracy. its our nature once democracy comes we look towards “khakis(army)” and when army comes we look for bhuttos, sharifs, zardaris, mazaris ….

    2. what to talk of this irresponsible media, which cannot understand the intrests. they just doing business. All anchors dont have shit to speak the truth. no one can name or point out the any of the real threats that we have. bloody bastards ccan not even name MQM a terrorist they all say “KARACHI KI EK POLITICAL PARTY. BULL SHIT

    at the end we need to correct our self in what ever capacity we are. lets be asure that nothing is going to happen to our pakistan.INSHAALLAH.. Pakistan zindabad


  13. We should remember that the french subs were also sold under a corrupt deal and Asif ali zardari is also have been said to receive kick backs from the french in the arms deal.
    The recent probe involving the bombing of french engineers working on the augusta b subs is a powerful propaganda tool for the french to use against Pakistan and make the government inclined toward the french.
    Military deals as always will remain corrupt as no deal is transparent……


  14. govt shoult purchase german technology
    current govt is totally failed and wicked govt zardari and his team is pro american and pro indian zardari said there is no danger n risk from indian sid what a folish statement…jahil zardari pakistan ko ly doby ga……our only hope is generam kiyani GOD bless pakistan


  15. Dear Gen Kiyani Our Respactive Chief.
    Sir Where R U ? our Country is totaly Failed All Department are Currept. curreption all departments. sir pls pls check PPPP is not capable. Gen Musharaf is ur hero beacouse ha was s Gen and best organised persen. Gen Kiyani pls interfear Govt.Marshallah is beat way


  16. Yeah i m also in favor of German subs…where is our chief..In case of Chief justice he is very motivated…What is he doing now????


  17. Nope Kiani Should not interfere in this issue and let the “Democretic” People make these decisions so people know what kind of IDIOTS they have elected and more IDIOTS are waiting in line for their turn. Hell with this kind of democracy where Idiots make the decisions of 160 millions of people. These so called DEMOCRATIC POLITICIANS are good for nothing but corruption. Bring back the PRESIDENT Musharraf who’s slogan was PAKISTAN first.


  18. […] pakistankakhudahafiz […]


  19. AOA i hope all will be fine mager dil say koi bhe khush nahi hai main aik bat sochta hoon kay pakistani bacha bacha or sari dunya janti hai kay mr president of pakistan mr 10% kay nam say janay jatay hain or ab to wo mr 100% ban chukay hain kya hamari establishment hamari army or policy maker is bat ko nahi jantay or mr malik jo aik pakistani bhi nahi lagtay or mairay khayal Say hain bhi nahi jo pakistan hamaray pyaray mulk or hamaray dinay islam ko nuksan pohncha rahay hain. or jo yay french submariens ki deal kar rahay hain us main bhi commission lay rahay hain kya ham nay apna Pak wata in do char logon kay hawaly kardia hai. or kya hain wo log jo inkay haq main naray lagatay hain.

    Allah Ham sub ka or Pakistan Ka hamio Nasir Ho


  20. General Kayani should step forward and speak clearly on this issue, also on other issues, we can’t afford to keep giving concessions to foreigners. We have a sold out gov’t not willing to do anything, soon it will be time for military to come back into the picture and intervene.


  21. the army chief is probably just another american puppet, he’ll probably do nothing now and will cry later if when shitty agostas will be torn apart by some small frigate’s attack

    German heavy equipments are the best all over the world, anyone who has doubt can read the history of WWI and II where these U-boats had almost won the war for Germany


  22. I Heard That India’s Defence Budget is now stands at 12 Billion Dollar which is a 40% of its annual GDP its a Huge Budget — for a nation where 60% People are living on 1 Dollar a Day — and i also heard LADY CLINTON on a recent visit to india and offering multi billion dollar ARMS DEAL and saying that its open new doors for relation with b/w them — See Irony in that — SELLING ARMs will be opening new doors … hhhhaa …. what a shameful thing to say from such a democratic country that also applies for North Korea … isn’t that.


  23. true..btw….it is 75% below poverty line….another report said around 80% poverty line… thats the budget….I heard spending was around 30 billion dollars, while Pakistan was only 6 billion dollars.


  24. Enough is enouhg .We have enough of French subs. The Germans subs are far better then the french. we should not kill our selves before the battle is joined


  25. U-214 is a great submarine in our arsenal. I think we should have at least 6 U-214s. Zardari will do what he is best known for a Curruption’s Undisputed King.


  26. I think french are giving some special offer to zardari on purchase of scorpene, Where as Germans are not.



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